Owning a MK2 welding is probably something quite a few of us will need done at some point, to some degree or other.
I'm genuinely envious of members on here who are doing their own and it's something I've promised myself I'm going to try and learn.
Unfortunately that'll be too long a wait for my own MK2 and I've had to get someone in to do that welding.
Because they're coming to me I'm trying to make things as ready as possible for them (and hopefully keep costs down too, if I do the prep.)
I've spent the last while cutting out the 'frilly' bits and cleaning things back to bare metal, plus fabricating the patches to be welded in.
I'm hoping to finish that today or tomorrow and will stick up some pics then, it's too awkward taking them while I'm working.
I'm likely not doing things the expected way as I've no previous experience of getting this type of work done to a car.
I've been watching what others have done on-line etc. but even so I've a feeling there may be a sudden intake of breath when the welder sees what I've done / want him to do!
Likely a bit late asking now, as I've already done the cutting and am committed to what's been done but in general terms, and for the benefit of others, maybe existing welders can put up a few (very) basic tips?
As you know I have a welder and have been doing some welding lately.
I just thought I'd share my journey.
Back in 2013 I bought the infamous Lunchbreak Project mk2, this was my midlife crisis buy to relive the one I had in my early 20s.
Now if you remember it was a bit of a rot box, however was all original and pretty much untouched (hence rot box) but was mechanically sound and a good runner. Finding one like that now would be an absolute dream.
Anyway, my plan was to use it as it was, it had a years (dubious as it turns out) MOT. I thought I'd see how it was and make sure it was a decent car, and then look to slowly restore. However my hand was forced when I lost the arch trim on the M5 after the metal it was fixed too just rusted out too far.
So I was convinced by a previous club member to hand it over (no names now) for some 'professional' repairs.
Long story short, the guys were morons and wrecked the car, they also damaged the fuel tank allowing water into the system which completely wrecked the fuel system and cost me thousands to get sorted.
The current owner of that car has since spent a fortune having bodywork done, which mostly involved have the stuff I had done redone!!!
Anyway, still eager to learn and knowing with an old car welding will come up again, in 2014 I signed up at local college for a 12 week course, introduction to restoration. 6 weeks of bodywork, including a welding and 6 weeks of prep, paint and finishing. It was only a few hours one evening a week, but it was a good introduction and only cost about £150 iirc. and while later, after seeking the advise from the guy running the course I invested in a decent welder.
Much more capable than I'd really need but I thought it was better to buy a lifetime welder rather than an entry level one that I might want to replace in years to come.
It's a Sealey Supermig 180 which even today on the Sealey website is almost £700, I paid just over £400 for it in a deal from Demon Tweaks, occasionally similar deals appear online buy generally it's around £500-600.
With gas, wire, regulator etc it was still a big outlay.
And there is sat in my garage.... I think for almost 2 years till I welded a pair of steel wheels together for a firepit for National Meet camping.
Now, as you may or may not know after the previous Golf I got a 1971 Beetle. This failed it's MOT on a small patch of welding....
which I should have easily been able to have done myself. But I had a lot on and knew it could be weeks before I got round to it and was able to resubmit the car to MOT, since they had it at the garage, told me it was only small and wouldn't cost much (less £100 I think) I just gave them the go ahead to get it done so I could at least drive it and enjoy it for summer.
This is when they not only set the car on fire, but fired the alternator by not disconnecting the battery before welding, and not removing any of the flammable interior.
So, you can see why I don't want to let other people work on my cars!
The next outing for the welder was when I noticed the exhaust on my classic 1980 Suzuki GS1000 was rusting through on the bottom.
Now this was a challenge, not sure if it was stainless steel or chromed, either way I managed it, blew a few holes in the thin metal but got there in the end and painted silver. Luckily it was on the bottom so couldn't be seen.
Bearing in mind a pair of exhausts for this would even be available to buy and something custom would be required the welder probably paid for itself with that one job.
And now, some 6 or 7 years after going to college and buying the welder I'm only finally making use of it. I'm learning on the job and I'm sure I haven't done a great job, but if it passes an MOT and gets me driving the car again I'll be happy. If I continue to practice perhaps I'll pull it apart and redo it in a few more years are part of a larger resto. The welder has certainly paid for itself now.
Totally worth getting into, and no going back for me now. Just wish I'd got into it sooner.
Saying that when I was 15 years old (1990) I bought my first car, my mate was into welding as his dad was, and we borrowed his dads welding kit, was Oxygen Acetylene Gas Welding and together we stuck a new nose cone and pair of wings on my TR7. But he did most of it, if only I'd done more then and kept with it. I didn't drive the car till I was 18 that was my first project.
Watch plenty of youtube videos, there are thousands out there and some are excellent at giving you advice.
But as you might guess, like paint, it's all in the prep.
The more time you spend planning it out, getting the metal cut out right and making the perfect replacement part, the better the overall look will be.
Kinda ironic, but you have to put masses and masses of effort in to make it look like you haven't done anything at all!
Inspiration, if any were needed, thanks.
These are a couple of the patches... the area at the front edge of the rear, nearside arch is probably the most complex and why I'm concentating on it.
I wanted to cut as little out as possible while getting rid of the damaged areas. Because of that I made the patches to fit the holes as it were and not the other way about.
I'm hoping I haven't made it too complex for the welder, he's experienced but I'm not, so don't know what's doable / acceptable / correct!
The idea was he could weld the pieces in, in sequence and build up the repair?
The patches are currently coated in rust converter to keep them clean, some were made weeks ago... I'll clean them up before welding.
The areas on the car I'll prime on their inside faces to do the same and contribute to the final rust protection.
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/1-0fb40feb-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/2-fef0c750-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/3-14824c9d-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/4-7db64585-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/5-ea09c5b0-1920w.jpg)
This is the underside of the sill, at the drivers door. One of the grommet holes had become frilly, didn't think it was necessary to re-do the hole so a plain patch instead.
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/9-9018d08c-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/10-01d4e0c8-1920w.jpg)
There were mudflaps on the car from new, VW ones with those metal clamp affairs. Unfortunately that'd caused some localised corrosion to the rear edge of both rear arches. Thankfully only one side needed that triangular piece.
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/6-9ec98000-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/7-c25decfa-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/8-397c8641-1920w.jpg)
The stump on the drivers side was perforated where it meets the floor, Heritages replacement isn't a match but then if you notice that you shouldn't be on your knees looking under my car!
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/11-069ca75c-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/12-9cddc532-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/13-e204b1df-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/521a0932/dms3rep/multi/opt/14-7575abc8-1920w.jpg)
Very neat! Top tip, remove the rear 'door' cards. Those inner arch sections are hollow and accessible from inside the car. You don't want any fires in case there's wax or seam sealant inside the rear quarter. I had quite a bit of wax in those cavities and started a few small fires but I have the rear cards out and a small spray bottle at the ready. One issue I did have though, putting out a fire with water caused some shrinkage on the panel I was welding making finishing that section a bit harder.
I watched a really good video of a guy doing a flush fit repair but tacking the panel over the hole then cut and weld as you go, pulling the surplus out form the inside. Won't work in every situation but the concept made for a perfect but joint and no gap.
Here you go, thanks to Youtube History found it easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u31t13QO6A
Very nice job!
One thing, when protecting the inner faces that will be welded, you can get 'weld through' primer. That's essentially zinc, but it stops rust and doesn't prevent the welder from making the necessary circuit.
That's some damn fine prep there, I'd be happy to come and weld that!!
Cheers... it's taken me quite a while to do just these small pieces, though I'm fortunate not to be under any pressure and can take my time (read that as make mistakes!).
I can't begin to imagine the effort and skill involved in even moderately bigger jobs, let alone full restorations... greater respect than ever now for people who can do this properly and like you say, make it seem like nothing's been touched.
You've hit the nail on the head - Fire is my biggest worry, even the heat created by cutting out the rot had the now liquid wax streaming. Testiment to VW's rust proofing and probably why the car's not a pile of dust after 30 odd years, but going to be a problem and one to watch.
Issues spraying on water's the sort of thing that doesn't occur to a newbie, hence this thread... I've an old 'Halon' fire extinguisher somewhere, think I'll be resurrecting it.
Said it elsewhere, but unfortunately I've ended up doing things all back to front - but more good advice and the interiors definitely coming back out.
Is the weld through primer unaffected by the process and remain there post welding?
I ask because some of the areas I can probably get a new coat of wax to, but others are no longer going to be accessible.
If you get let down with the welder let me know I'd be up for that, need to keep my hand in, would do it for a constant stream of mugs of tea ;-)
Good luck getting the welding done.
I asked our local college about welding courses. They only have full time courses!
Thanks Bill, hopefully not need to call on you but good too to know you're available if needed - cheers.
The welder / mechanic's of an age he worked on MK2's first time around and I think he's doing the work mainly out of nostalgia, more than the money.
I was sounding him out about doing the clutch, before I'd taken it off and he was fit to remember about the rod running through the center and bearing set up - must have a good memory.
Here you go, thanks to Youtube History found it easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u31t13QO6A
Just had the chance to watch this... mesmerizing to see him work.
At least I've his good looks and the same swimmers build to take up welding, was like standing in front of the mirror!
At the end he coments on he hopes watchers can understand him, didn't notice anything was wrong myself... maybe because when he started speaking I went to check his profile - if I'd to put money on it, I'd have guessed he was from Ireland, not Canada.
Definitely sounds Irish, I like the way he does the old close the eyes welding lol
Scary stuff this welding... Tim's water spray saved the day a few times and that was after cleaning out as much VW wax as possible!
Don't know how you'd be able to safely do it without someone watching over you.
Had hoped to be showing you some piccies of the finished article, but the welders old machine has given up the go.
He needs one too much not to be getting a replacement ASAP, so hopefully we'll be back on track very soon.
Got me looking around for courses again and managed to enroll in a local college for a 15 week night class, beginning next month.
Only 2 hours, one night a week for the 'recreational user', but just what I was after and it'll get me started.
Good work, should pick up some very useful skills.
Had a quick look at helmets and choice is enormous - don't mind spending a bit more on a good one, is there anything in particular I should be looking for when deciding?
I'm not a pro, but I just picked up a reactalite one, make sure it's got a sensitivity adjustment, as you don't want it darkening if you're working in a particularly light room.
I got a generic £30 one off eBay. perfectly acceptable, and has auto dark. I just had to buy some new batteries, had been stashed in the garage for a few years with very little previous use since first getting it....
This kind of thing
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402732193275?hash=item5dc4b595fb:g:b1gAAOSwzylhA7Hn
I wanted the naked lady one but knowing I'd be out on the driveway I opted for just the carbon fibre look
Spot on, thanks.
Young fella's doing it with me (or am I doing it with him), so he's swotting up on all things welding.
As I'm forking out for the course fees, he's paying for his own gear, trouble is he's that tight I didn't want him settling on something unsuitable just because it was the cheapest he could find.
Well started last week, first night was as expected and a lot of talking about the weeks ahead, but this week they let us loose with Mig and stick welding.
One thing they have said is to think of a 'project' to complete over the term.
Apparently about £55.00 of the course fee was set aside for materials though I get the impression they'll not be too worried if you use more, within reason.
I was wracking my brains and eventually thought maybe an electric grinder pedestal (nothing too big, have to get it home after all) - saw this one on eBay, looks like someones own design / work but just what I'd imagined too. Even the grinder in his advert is the one I have so know it'll fit.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/M70AAOSw1EZexueY/s-l1600.jpg)
Anyone any other ideas?
I have to admit having something to do is my biggest issue. You learn by practice, but apart from running lines alone scrap metal I could never think of a project to do.
I did Google 'simple welding projects' and came across a few idea, even a couple of PDFs. One of the first things most people do is a trolley for their welder, but mine was a big one on wheels so that wasn't needed, the next seems to be a welding bench. And people like to add little brackets on the side to hold the torch etc or other nifty addons to make it special.
I think the stand you've put there would be a good idea, it has various joints, fillets and even some nuts/bolts welded on the side. It will need to be straight and true and well balanced so will be a good test of the fabrication accuracy as well as the welding skill. And is both quite simple, but also complicated enough - if you get what I mean.
It's a small'ish class, 8-10 people and I think about half of those seem to be reasonably accomplished welders already, just there to use the facilities.
Been some talk of welding tables etc. so thought there shouldn't be a problem with my much smaller stand getting the go ahead.
The rolley for a welder is a good one. Will definitely be getting one at some point, might be wiseto see what one we'd go for now so it'll suit.
Would be one for the son to do maybe, he's struggling to think of something too.
Just been having a look round t'internet for ideas.
I mechanics car creeper came up and I thought that was quite a good idea.
https://www.wcwelding.com/mechanics-creeper.html
One of the things I've thought of doing is a mover for my motorbike.
(https://dccf75d8gej24.cloudfront.net/images/products/02/020110139GL/390754BF-086E-47E9-A9B5-13B2379E648D-huge.jpg)
If you haven't already have a look on Mig Welding forum, there's a projects section https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/forums/projects.18/ with lots of inspiration and on the whole as a forum most people are OK but they get a bit shirty if you ask the questions that have been asked a million times already - like what welder should I get?
I made up a nice set of axle stands about 30 odd years ago, scaffold pole centre and some solid bar, been using them ever since, I trust them more than Halfords crap, they could probably take 3 tonne on them, slight overkill lol.
There were mudflaps on the car from new, VW ones with those metal clamp affairs. Unfortunately that'd caused some localised corrosion to the rear edge of both rear arches.
My car has had VW flaps from new too. They are a nice feature now if you still have them but the fixing is nasty.
To avoid that corrosion I flood the area with wax if I adjust the flaps. Have done from new and that area has not rusted.
That is really great fabrication work. Half the battle (if not more).
I learnt initally from youtube videos but it wasn't until I had a mobile welder (andy classic and customs based in coventry but travels all over the country) who showed me how to set up my machine and actually weld that I had the confidence to work on the car.
I now do bits like you are doing but I leave work where it's on show - such as an arch - to Andy as haven't got the confidence yet.
One thing I keep meaning to make is a hose tidy to screw to the garage wall for all the car cleaning gear.
At the moment it's really thick pieces of steel we're practising on, but there was a more regular car panel thickness piece in the 'junk' trolley that I had a go on... completely different ball game and not in a good way, looking forward to when we focus on that side of things.
Plenty of good ideas, and got my imagination working. Garage stuff is probably going to be the main source for projects.
One I had thought of was a rack or even individual hangars for spare wheels / winter tyres, to get them up out of the way. The free standing ones I have at the moment do the job, but they're quite unstable, I'm always bumping into them then having to grab the stack before it leans over and falls.
Yes, thinner gauge steel is a lot tricker to get right and not blow through.
I really want to make a tyre rack too, we have so many kicking about, it'll be good to get them out the way.
One thing I noticed when doing my bits on the car. It was much easier to blow holes in the NEW panels than the car body I was welding to or patches I cut myself from an old roof skin. Not sure if the repair panels were thinner, I assume not, so would be down to quality of metal, as in a higher percentage of recycled metal maybe!? note to self: re-use old metal wherever possible.
One thing I noticed when doing my bits on the car. It was much easier to blow holes in the NEW panels than the car body I was welding to or patches I cut myself from an old roof skin. Not sure if the repair panels were thinner, I assume not, so would be down to quality of metal, as in a higher percentage of recycled metal maybe!? note to self: re-use old metal wherever possible.
I think you are right on recycled metal. On comparing my mk2 and mk3 the metal quality is far superior in the mk2. The mk3 was around about a time when VW started using recycled raw materials. I would not be suprised if the new panels were also made out of recycled metal.
New paints and primers though are superior to the old stuff so even the new metal has some chance in surviving many many years.
I just glad I saved the roof panel from the one I cut up, even though it's a bit of a pain cleaning the paint off (and the other side where there's glue residue) it's been very useful for patches and I'm sure what I have left will continue to be helpful. To save wasting it I think I'll do any further self-training on the off-cuts of the new repair panels, 1. to not waste the good metal and 2. to get used to the self destructive properties of it.
The choice of welding process to use should depend on where you have to weld your car, but in general TIG is better for all applications. For aluminum welding, you would ideally only use TIG or GTAW/GMAW with good quality shielding material. For iron body and inconel you want to stick with AC or AC+DC TIG or MMA welding without gas assist, although running out temps are sometimes unavoidable. Make sure when you go for welding the labor should use the best TIG welder. The list of best TIG welders are - https://weldzone.org/best-tig-welder-for-aluminum/ (https://weldzone.org/best-tig-welder-for-aluminum/)
Coincidentally had a go at TIG last night... watching someone who's experienced at is was a joy.
The MIG I sort of got the hang of very quickly considering I'd never held a welder before, but TIG's quite a few levels up, must take a long time to master it properly.
Made these a few weeks back when we were welding 2 x pieces of steel together in an 'L' for practise.
When you're done with something they normally have gone into the scrap basket.
I'd put the MK2 back on it's wheels earlier that day and chocked it with some wood, so it was fresh in my mind that I needed some proper ones.
Couple of flat bases later and hey presto.
The grips are some cut up rubber coolant pipes.
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/aa93dcda/dms3rep/multi/opt/chocks-1920w.jpg)
Not the most flattering angle, but it's still in bare metal / needs prepped and painted.
The rate this is going the course'll have paid for itself a couple of times over!
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/9a903fa2/dms3rep/multi/opt/stand-1920w.jpg)
I haven’t actually done a great deal with my welder in the time I’ve had it and it was quite an expense as I went for a decent mid-range one but I’d already say it’s paid for itself with the bits I have done. Granted I may find the bits I’ve done need to be redone in a few years but I paid £1500 for bodywork on my last one that I know from the current owner has all had to have been redone and that was supposed to be by people that do it for a living.
Certainly excellent to have access to a welder and even better to know how to use it. I think I need to set myself some more projects to practice. Looks like you’re doing well.
Hard to believe the course ended over a month ago.
Bought a Sealey MightyMig 170 as it seemed to have enough growing room in it's spec. that if the son wanted to take things further he'd get some mileage out of it rather than have to upgrade sooner than later.
Got one nearby... used our local Govt. covid voucher scheme to get £100 off, plus another sizable wack for taking a display model, then had the cheek to wangled a few freebies out of them so it all worked out at a sensible price.
His birthday is two weeks before Xmas so he got it as a combined gift for the trwo, plus having a new interest opened the doors for everyone else to get him something welding related... he did alright out of the whole thing.
You can imagine the disappointment then that it packed up after 10 minutes into using it... went straight back after the holidays and they were mortified, gave him a brand new one gratis to replace it. Landed on his feet yet again.
Built him a bit of an enclosure in the corner of the garage, partly self serving as I was worried about the cars getting damaged.
He'd made this welding table for himself at the night class and because space was going to be tight he made it collapsible.
The instructors were brilliant, let him have free rein with materials and allowed him to come in a few extra nights during other classes to work on it.
2 x swinging arms on pins and a hinged back, weighs a ton and took the both of us to carry it out to the car. If the Ukraine kicks off, we'll all be safe beneath it.
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/9a903fa2/dms3rep/multi/opt/table+down-1920w.jpg)
(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/9a903fa2/dms3rep/multi/opt/table+up-1920w.jpg)
That's excellent, well done.
Yeah, that's a great looking table. Good work that man!
Here is a question for you experts. I am contemplating welding in a new arch, not done that before. The previous owner rolled the lips back on both side and I am wanting to get it back to OEM.
I am lucky that the actual arches are good but the lips are rusty now and damanged from rolling. I have repair panels from Heritage.
I'm thinking to approach by cutting down the repair panel, mounting on the car securerly. Use a compass to mark approx 1cm onto the face of arch and then welding it in.
Is that best approach do you reckon? Is 1cm enough to clear the inner arch metal work, though i expect to have to patch repair that as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/1fvfvDD/20220424-130646.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kgHgHRR)
PS any ideas on how to remove that tiger seal stuff?
A compass will be no help the arch isn’t a perfect circle.
I meant using it to follow the line of the arch, but 1cm from the lip for a clean line. A bit of wood and string + pen is probably what i would use. Is 1cm enough to not also cut through the inner arch - how close are they pinched together - like this - or would you go higher still?
(https://i.ibb.co/JRH97WQ/line.png) (https://ibb.co/tMD9swX)
Ideally, you want to come further up the arch so your join is away from the lip and more on the flat of the arch if that makes sense. It'll help you maintain the shape and give you a flatter surface to smooth out, grind, skim fill etc.
If you look here https://www.rotboxrustorations.com/mk2-golf-resto.html there's a goo picture of a rear arch repair.
This is where they were done on my old one.
(https://eddypeck.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/20131122_121747_hdr_resized_zpseff60c7d.jpg).
I'd say you ant to cut just above the line of tiger seal.
Thanks Eddy I see it now. I am trying to avoid having to paint the entire quarter.
This would work for me https://www.rotboxrustorations.com/mk2-golf-resto.html
(https://i.ibb.co/LdNZHHZ/6760233-orig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r2dwNNw)
That's the one. I looked back through my pics but I think that one showed it better anyway.
The recent repairs I did to my current one, were just the bottom ends of the arch and not the full arch but I managed to contain all the repairs within the area covered by the arch trims and sill covers which made my life easier. I used Raptor and rattle cans.
(https://eddypeck.files.wordpress.com/2021/08/img_4699.jpg)
Nice Eddy, similar to what my mk3 needed. This car shamefully had its arches rolled and would only have needed a patch at the back :(
I assume those 3 holes on our big bumper cars are not used? Couldn't see anything on the arch trim of mine.
Nice Eddy, similar to what my mk3 needed. This car shamefully had its arches rolled and would only have needed a patch at the back :(
I assume those 3 holes on our big bumper cars are not used? Couldn't see anything on the arch trim of mine.
The arch trims usually have locating lugs which normally get snapped off first time they are removed. I can't remember if I saw any now. Maybe they aren't on big bumper trims as the arch locks into the sill, but I'd suspect they are supposed to be there ... hmmm.... you got me thinking now. On my old one it's around these lugs that rotted out causing me to lose my trim somewhere along the M5.
Those holes are for the CL/GL arch spats.
All the chassis had the holes in them, but the GTIs had the little rubber grommets in the holes to stop water getting in.
Those holes are for the CL/GL arch spats.
All the chassis had the holes in them, but the GTIs had the little rubber grommets in the holes to stop water getting in.
Interesting, early spec GTI arches certainly had the lugs on the trims.
Must admit, it's been a fair few years since I've seen the inside of a set of early arches.